As the President of T3 Sixty, Jack Miller is responsible for client relationship development and management of T3 Sixty’s consulting team. He has nearly two decades in the real estate industry and has held management and executive roles in real estate franchising, franchise ownership, brokerages and management consulting organizations. Jack’s formal education is in electrical and computer engineering, and prior to the real estate industry worked in multiple technology startup companies including as a partner and investor. He is a consistent contributor to the Swanepoel Trends Report, the T3 Tech Scorecard Reports, as well as various white papers and abstracts on technology.
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00:00 The Data Driven Real Estate Podcast Welcomes Jack Miller, President of T3 Sixty.
1:21 What keeps Jack Miller motivated and excited about the real estate industry?
2:56 What is T3 Sixty?
7:18 What is The Almanac and why did T3 Sixty create it for the real estate industry?
13:57 What is PropTech?
15:08 What are the top three technology most requested in real estate and what problems is proptech trying to solve?
20:05 Why is the real estate sector so bad at technology?
26:01 Is competition from ibuyers like Zillow and Opendoor forcing mega real estate brands like Keller Williams and Realogy to invest in technology?
29:47 The Opendoor IPO is coming up and it appears these flips don't make money. Can that last?
38:27 Will Realtor brands like Keller Williams and Realogy launching ibuyer initiatives work better than Opendoor, Offerpad, and Knock?
42:03 Will real estate teams continue to be a theme in 2021 for Realtors?
45:35 Is there a team structure that works best?
52:38 Is big tech like Amazon and Google getting into the real estate industry?
54:32 - What are some real estate trends we should expect in 2021?
Welcome back to the Data Driven Real Estatepodcast Episode 21. This week we have Jack Miller with T3 Sixty. Jack Miller is the President and he is responsible for client relationships, development andmanagement and T3 Sixty. If you’re not familiar with that company, they doconsulting work, but they also produce the Swanepoel Trends Report and TheAlmanac, and the Trends Report is something I look forward to every year. It’sa very large report covering PropTech and all the trends happening in realestate. And that’s what we covered this week on the podcast, What is PropTech?And when Gary Keller says he’s spending a billion dollar on technology for hisagents, what does that look like? And what exactly are they investing in? tosell, make his clients and his agents money? And, how are disruptors andCOVID-19 changing our industry in the residential real estate space? That andmuch more on this week’s show? All right. Hey, welcome back to the Data DrivenReal Estate podcast, the podcast for real estate professionals dedicated todriving business using data. I’m Aaron Norris with co-host Sean O’Toole fromPropertyRadar and today, we are very excited to have Jack Miller with T3 Sixty.How you doing, Jack?
I’m doing great. Thank you very much forinviting me. And I really, really appreciate when you reached out and knowingthe domain that you guys are in, it seems like really great, really greataudience for all these topics.
So I’ve been, I’ve been fanboying. For severalyears, I’ve been chasing you. So I’ve been looking forward to this interview,actually, for a very long time. Our CMO, David Leplante came up, he and I werechatting about the podcast and a better way to maybe start, and maybe this isan interesting place to start it. What is it that keeps you motivated in thisbusiness in real estate? What gets you excited about the data and stayingactive?
Well, we’re just we’re in an industry that isin massive change and transition and creativity and capital and spontaneity.And I’ve been this will be my 20th year in real estate industry. And, it’snever been a more dynamic time in terms of business models capital, the capabilityof the technologies we have today. We were you know, 20 years ago, when we werelaunching IDX websites and things for franchises it was, we had to carve ourown forks, you know, there was nothing that you could get off the shelf. Thatwas there’s wasn’t anything off the shelf. So, we had to make everything andnow there’s just so many great tools. And we actually have an understanding ofhow to use some of them fairly well. It’s taken us two decades to figure outuser interfaces and to make things simple, and you know, so we’re at we’re at atime of great creativity for the industry and a lot of innovativeopportunities. So, I think, you know, any entrepreneur that’s working in realestate right now, what a playground you’re stepping into, it’s got lots, lotsof things that you can do.
If somebody is listening and has no idea,hasnever heard of T3 Sixty. How do you describe it?
Yes, so, T3 Sixty is a we’re a research andmanagement consulting company. We focus exclusively on residential real estatebrokerage industry, and kind of the related industry. So, we do, we do a bannerset of research. Every year, we publish a trends report, which is wonderfultrends reports, and this year, it’s in its 16th edition, this is the prioryear, you can go to T3trends.com and see that. What we write about in thereport, we’re not news, we’re not media, we’re analysts. And so what we put inour trends report is what we think should be on the executive agenda of leadersin the industry. And so, if you’re running an organization, it doesn’t matterif it’s a real estate brokerage or franchise, you know, a big, you know, an MLSor an association, any any of the connective tissue of residential real estatebrokerage industry, you’re leading an organization, then these are things thatwe we think that you should be thinking about. And we typically take about athree-year view on what a trend is. So, we look at things that we think aregoing to impact the industry, they’re probably impacting now, you’re probablygonna continue to have impact for another two to three years. So, we’re not, we’renot trying to go way out in the future because that’s hard. We’re trying tolook at what are the issues that belong on your executive strategic planning,you know this for this year, and we published a report every year in December.We also do research on the industry itself. So, we we publish a compendium,which is the real estate Almanac is about a 400 page publication that goesthrough the top 1000 brokerages, the all the MLS and associations, all thetechnology companies that serve the industry, the top 200 leaders in theindustry, that’s all you can get all of that it’s on realestatealmanac.com. Wealso have a print version as well for those that might Desk Reference, and wereally step on Swanpoel....Oh, yes?
I was raising my hands. I like a desk reference.I mean...
You like the desk reference? Yeah, yeah, we canget you that, we got this one. So, this one comes out in December we ship inthe first week in December. This one, we shipped the print versions in May. Oh,I have both, Jack. Yeah, I have both.
The December one’s your 2021 Trends Report. So,that’s coming up right now. So, it’s just a couple of weeks away.
And we have a lot of investors.
If people, if people want to get it for alittle bit less money, we offer pre-publication discounts, it’s $30 bucks off, goto t3trends.com get a copy. So right. Yeah,
We, you know, I first came across StefanSwanepoel as an investor.
And so, you mentioned, you know, real estatebrokerages and I realized all those folks are your, your, your bread and butterclients. But we do have a lot of investor listeners too. And there is a lot ofgood stuff in there, for you as well, especially the Trends Report, I think it’sprobably a worthwhile was it $100 and some odd dollars or something?
Yes, usually $200. This year, it’s $169, if youorder before December. So, but we do have very strong, excellent secondaryaudiences with investors that want to know what’s going on in the, you know,the resale industry, because if you, you know, if you want to catch up intowhat’s happening, resale, this is this tells you what’s going on resaleindustry, and also a lot of people from mortgage and finance, who areinterested in what’s happening in brokerage industry, because this is we’retracking kind of what are the conversations, what are the things that leadersare having to handle in their businesses right now. And I would also say productpeople, anybody that’s building products for the industry, this gets you intowhat the executive conversations are, right now, in the industry.
I think the only one that doesn’t like directlytalk to is the commercial side. But I still think it’s valuable for thecommercial folks to know what’s going on in residential, because thatultimately impacts the commercial market, as well. So I just want to set it up,because we have a lot of different listener types. And I just want to let themknow that if, you know, if you’re not a realtor, you still may want to listenin here as we continue on and talk about trends because it does impacteverybody.
One of the things I was, tell me why youdecided to use, to create the Almanac, I was surprised when that came out thisyear. And it’s huge. And I think my favorite part is getting to go through allthe categories of technology, I consider myself a little bit of a tech nerd.And I was surprised with how many companies I had no idea existed.
So honestly, both of these publications, Iwould say, came from Stefan, who’s our founder, on his desire to have betterintelligence for himself and for the people that he was working with. And whenhe, when he moved in, he started the company 20 years ago, we rebranded it toT3 Sixty, 5 years ago, when he started the company, a core piece of it was hesaid, there’s really not great, um, you know, intelligence about this industry.And so, he said, “Well, I’m gonna make it”. And so, he started researching andwriting about the industry. And I would say that’s true today. I mean, we, westudy and research the industry so that we can be better advisors for ourclients and have a, you know, a strong body of work, where it’s like, hey, we’vespent 400, 500 hours talking to industry leaders to understand what’s going onright now and have developed a perspective on it where, we don’t operate abrokerage, we don’t operate a national franchise, or we’re not in the game, butwe’re students of it. And that lets us be a fair and neutral resource. We’relooking at what the issues are in all acquisitions, similar reason, therereally wasn’t, you know, when you’re talking to the private equity company, or,you know, a company that’s maybe looking to acquire other companies? Therereally wasn’t great resources, they will, Hey, who are the biggest players inthe space? Who are the companies that operate within certain regions andgeographies? What are their high-level market stats? you know, if you’re, ifyou’re really studying the industry strategically to make better decisions, youneed a resource like this, to understand it better. And so, we needed it forus, but we needed it so that we can be better consultants and advisors to toour clients and both, you know, people in the industry and people coming intothe industry and asking us those kinds of questions, so.
One of the report is dedicated to PropTech, andI developed my list and you emailed back and one of my questions was, you know,your journey from a hardware engineer into PropTech and you’re like, maybe weshould say real estate because PropTech didn’t exist back.
Yeah, yeah. PropTech’s a new that’s that’s newlingo. I mean, that’s, it’s, it’s, you know, four or five years old, I started,I came into real estate, from engineering, computer, electrical engineer. Iwent to go work for a national franchise based here in Austin to build theirtechnology, and was there for five years and yes, and I fell in love with thisindustry. So this is amazing.
Quick question. I mean, you started with RE/MAXright around the dot-com...
With Keller, with Keller Williams here inAustin. Yeah, RE/MAX up in Denver.
Keller Williams, but so you made that was thata? Was that a result of the dot-com crash? And like, Oh man, I gotta go findanother industry?
You know? Um, I’ll say yes and no, because Iwas a serial entrepreneur in the 90s. When I came out of college went to gowork for a startup, we had a billion-dollar IPO, I made some money, not likesilly money, I made reasonable money for a junior person at a company that has,it wasn’t ridiculous. But then I said, Hey, this is really great. Like these,this company, had an idea went to market. So I did the same thing. And wepromptly went out of business two years later, what did it but it’s some of thebest money I have. Because, you know, you learn, as you gentlemen know, on, youknow, being an entrepreneur teaches lessons that I don’t think you can learnany other way. And so, so when, when that happened, I didn’t have to go find ajob immediately, we were fine. But I was very interested in businesses thatwere that had a very high degree of sales, focus, and work, you know, weren’tas necessarily impacted yet by technology. And I’d always had an interest inreal, I’d always had an interest in real estate. And a friend of mine who wasworking with Keller Williams at franchise he was operating in Sarah, InterimChief Technology Officer at while they were looking for a permanent personsaid, Hey, you should come and look what these guys are doing they’re reallyinnovating this particular industry, which the company I came from wasinnovating in another industry. So, I love that concept. Like I want to be partof a company that’s changing the model or the dynamics. And so that’s how Icame to real estate. And then once I got here, I mean, this industry, so fullof interesting people interested in the problems of, you know, new businessmodels, it’s got, it’s got a lot of things for a person who gets bored easilyto, to study and learn from. So, that’s, that’s my personal journey. Stefan ismy partner in T3 Sixty. He’s been an industry executive for his entire career.I mean, he’s been the Chief Executive, I think, 13 times he’s running national,National Association for South Africa. He started the MLS in South Africa. He’sbuilt multiple brokerage companies. And you’ll find that’s a trend. We have 20employees now, our senior consultants that work with staff, they tend to havecome from significant industry experience, they run brokerages they’ve been infranchise they’ve been, you know, they’ve, they’ve worked for with techcompanies and industry they’ve been, they’ve got a perspective, because they’veactually, you know, been in the industry and have done the job before. So, that’sthat’s me, I think you find...
And correct me if I’m wrong, but I know atleast I believe he at least used to do some M&A work in the space as well.Is that still part of the business?
Yeah, still, we’re still we’ve done, we did twotransactions in the last 12 months. What you know, was fairly sizable one. Andwe currently represent probably between eight to 10 companies right now. And Ithink there’s several of those. I mean, we expect to do you know, a handful oftransactions in the technology space annually. Because that’s, that’s justwhere we’ve been more active in the technology space.
And so it said, the M&A stuffs in techmergers and acquisitions in technology versus in brokerage or.
We’ve done some like, yeah, we’ve done some...
Yeah, we’ve done some brokerage work, we’vedone some MLS work, we’ve done some merger and consolidation work in MLS. So,we have, we’ve had some significant experience in all of those categories. Ijust say right now, the hot space for us is technology is where we’re seeingmore activity right now on our M&A team.
How would you define PropTech?
So, I think PropTech broadly is the, you know,the application of technology into property and property-related industry. So,it’s pretty broad category. I mean, it’s a lot of stuff in PropTech. And, youknow, we have we have on the Tech 500, which is part of that home. And on thewebsite there. We identify, you know, hundreds and hundreds of companies, manyof them we knew, and some we didn’t, we’re like there’s a lot of players in thespace. So there’s, there’s about, you know, six to 700 companies that serve thereal estate industry in one form or another. Some of them are very small, bythe way, some of the little tiny companies. And so out of those, there’sprobably between 250 to maybe 300 that are, you know, significant companiesthat provide more than one product and certain space. in residential space. Yougo into commercial, like some of the people that are listening in on here,while there’s a bunch of stuff in commercial. There’s a bunch of stuff over amortgage. There’s lots and lots and lots of PropTech, but we’ve really focusedon the PropTech that serves the agent, the broker, the MLS, you know, the RealEstate Association and all of those constituencies there.
What would you say would be the top threetechnologies that most of the people asking you to do consulting is really,what’s the problem they’re trying to solve?
So, I think based on the engagements that wehave to do a lot of these, there’s a lot of competitive pressure to keep upwith the big boys of tech. Right? So if you have, you have the Zillow’s, andthe Redfin’s, and to some extent, the campuses, and some of these companiesthat are have made very substantial investments in technology, marketingsystems, you know, consumer systems, so, there’s a degree of pressure tocompete with them. So, we do a lot of work in what I refer to as like,enterprise front office, where it’s like marketing systems to keep the agent,to keep your listings, to stay in front of the consumer and attract people to acompany and brand and an agent. For the larger companies, for smallercompanies, it’s, you know, lead generation and marketing systems. Those are theones we see, that is a constant, a constant hot space. There are, there’s a,there’s a few other areas that are interesting. I think one of your one of thequestions you sent over earlier, Aaron was like, what are some of thesurprising areas? And I’ll say this is both one of the top three and surprisingto me, and to our team is that over the past two, two and half years, there’sbeen a real renaissance in what I would refer to as like, technology staples,accounting systems, back office, even, even, there’s some work being done withone solutions right now, it’s quite innovative. So, some of these stapletechnologies were think, Ah, accounting, so boring, back-office so boring.Actually, turned into a little bit of hot space, where we’re seeing a lot moreinterest there. I think mainly because A, the technology’s got a lot better,there’s some investments have been made, there’s better. B, there’s a realsearch in the broker, market for efficiency. And for scale, because we need todo more, with less, we need to be able to process more transactions at a lowercost. And so, I think there’s much more focus being placed on those areas. Sothat’s, that’s another area that I’d say, we’re we’re doing a lot of that. Andthen the other is kind of like, what I’ll call, you know, specific issues wherea brand or company wants to be really great at something, and they need tobuild something that gives them the competitive advantage. And I’d say we do afair amount of that, where companies come to us and say, hey, there’s thisthing, that is really we have to be the best at. And that’s a fun space,because sometimes that’s non-industry, technology we’re working with or, youknow, new ideas, or no real, you know, new thinking or new thoughts. And that’sa that’s a constant we’ve had that when the entire the entire last seven yearsof running consultancy, we’ve always had agents like.
Can you give us an example of one of those?
So, usually not. You’d have to talk to ourclients.
But anything that’s out in the wild already.
Yeah, but I mean, there’s, you know, as, asexamples, like, people saying things like, you know, I really want, I want to,I want to stay in touch with my clients, in a way that’s unique, novel anddifferent. Like I want to, I want to have follow up systems that are not justthe same old, same old, like, we don’t want to send the same material. Andlike, so that’s where you see specialty products, I’ll give you some examplesout of that space, like low low gifts, and move in time, some of these wherethey’re, they’re using a combination of data and integration tools, in order toprovide a more unique client experience. We’ve seen that too, in that in thepost-transaction market, which we wrote about last year in the trends report,where, you know, agents who do a lot of business, one of their biggest sourcesof business is the people that they’ve done business with before. And so, that’san area where we’ve seen a renaissance of different technologies. And so youcan look at like, what, you know, what active pipe does, and how they do, youknow, follow up and incubation, you can look at any of the transactionconcierge-type companies and how they are saying, Hey, we’re, we’re gonna stayin touch with you post transaction, and having this white label for the companysorts like, Oh, this is our, this is our specific way that we incubate thatconsumer for further transactions or repeat referral, over a long period oftime, because agents are not great at that. And that’s hard to do without asystem in place. So, those are some examples where there’s some, there’s somework we did earlier, and now you can look at and say, hey, that’s a product.That’s a company, that’s a that’s a space that is there where you can you cansee how It’s come into the landscape, it didn’t exist that way, five, sevenyears ago, so.
Is it me or is, is residential real estate justreally terrible in general at technology.
Um, so, it’s not a technical market. So, it’s asales-driven, market sales driven, and its people relationship driven. And ourmy former startup was we sold into school districts. And so our customers werepeople that work for school districts, and we’re usually teachers. And so, I’vehad a real fascination with that, like, that’s a human who does not spend allof their day in front of the computer, right? But they’re highly relatable.They, you know, you know, people like this during your life, right? Andrealtor, the realtor industry, the agent industry is, is a lot of that. Andthese are not people that want to spend their whole day in front of thecomputer, they’re not going to figure it out on your own. They, they needsomething that’s simple and works well. And, you know, the top top people don’tfigure out anything doesn’t matter. But the people that, you know, bulk of theagents, you know, they, they do 6 to 7 transactions a year. And they, theyappreciate technology, where they don’t have to go to a class every time tolearn it, they can just pick it up and use it. And that’s actually harder tobuild takes a lot of skill to build that kind of technology. So, I’d say that’smy, my personal fascination with it. But I’d say as an industry, we strugglewith tech, it’s it’s hard, we spend a lot, we spend a lot of money on it. Andwe have a lot of things not been successful. In terms of the adoption and theuse of technology. It’s just taken a lot longer. I’ve got some great examplesif you want some examples. So, so my partner Stefan wrote a book abouttransaction management systems that he published back in the late 90s. And he’slike, Oh, this is coming, this is going to be here. And it was 15 years later,before we really saw that happen that it took it just we didn’t have thesoftware wasn’t mature enough for it. And we also had an agent, population,enemies in the population that just didn’t, they didn’t adopt software tools.That’s not a good business. They did business, paper pad, pencil, filingcabinet. That’s what they were used to doing, and.
That’s actually an interesting example, too,because I think that some of what gets in real estate’s way, in that right issome of the, I’ll call them fiefdoms. But the the the, you know, power centersor whatever, so, you take something like transaction management, the CaliforniaAssociation of Realtors has a investment in zip form, develops all these formshas an exclusive thing. We’re now a Dotloop, or somebody who’s a challenger,maybe you have to use a simpler user interface, can’t get access to the forumswithout the forums. It’s kind of a useless tool. Right? So there’s this almostevery time in real estate, there’s some sort of dynamic like that, like, Oh, we’vegot this great idea. But we can’t get the data from the MLS or, you know, there’ssome other I don’t want to political is probably the wrong term, but some otherhours there would play.
Yeah, then. And I’d say that’s, that is that’sbeen a theme in this industry, and a lot of different forms is a great example.I mean, the listings data itself, is a great example. But I think that era isreally coming to a close and a lot of different ways. It’s not completely overand it’s ever going to be over. But in many, there’s many examples where like,it’s a lot easier to get foreign licenses today. You know, I had this, I hadthis conversation, by the way, I had this conversation this morning, talkingabout form licenses and going into new states and all that. I mean, this isbread and butter for us right now. And I know like some of our industry consultantshave been working in the force space forever. So it really is, it’s just, it’s slowlygotten better and better and better. So, are there five things? Absolutely. Butthere’s less of them today than there were 10 years ago. It’s improved. Westopped wasting now, we still ways to go.
The forum was especially interesting. And I’ve probablyhad two calls in the last month of like relatives like, I’m going to sell myhouse to my sister, but we don’t really want to hire a real estate agent. Buthow do we do the form?
Those ones aren’t available to you.
It, it’s so interesting to see like some I livein Texas, and Texas actually has a very progressive, like we have one set offorms, for the whole state. And if you do business in Texas, I can, you canwrite a contract in Dallas. It’s good in Austin, it’s good in Houston, theremay be some local addendums for you know, whatever, you need but...
If you’re an agent though, right? If you’re notan agent, you don’t have access to those.
Yes, yeah. But I mean, you got to solve it forthe agents otherwise you can’t even begin to solve for the consumer. I mean, ifthe agents are using all different stuff. It’s a nightmare, so.
California has that benefit, I think Florida,you know, those are where the big associations are. And so, they’ve invested inthat. Whereas, in a lot of states, it’s still kind of the Wild West in terms ofpeople using their own stuff and crazy.
It is. It is. And it’s, it’s, you know, again,the industry because of the local nature of real estate. That is one of thepersistent, it’s the backwards, the persistent background industry, just likeour market is a little different. We have different local law, we havedifferent local customs. You know, in Florida, you you can sell a boat, a deed,there’s a deeded boat dock, it’s a document. Like, you don’t have thateverywhere else, right? So, it is a little different. So, you have to solve forthe local market in all instances, it’s not a, not an easy problem, but it’sone where technology is now getting more mature and be able to get data andhandle more complex, you know, unstructured data sets has improved. So, we’re,we’re gonna get there, it’s just gonna take time.
Do you feel like maybe some of the big playerscoming in is really forcing a lot of the mega brands to pay attention and togrow up a little bit when it comes to technology?
I think it’s placed competitive pressure in themarket. I think when you see you know, companies making significant investmentswhen you see Zillow, doing I mean, Zillow. Well, there’s a lot of people thatwon’t shake their fists and stamp a beat and are upset with Zillow. And Iperfectly understand why, at the same time, they got us out of the dark agesthat we were in, in terms of the consumers experience with real estate, and thefrustration that they had and not being able to get to the data easily or nothave a good user experience. So, they really, it’s a it’s a gift that they gavethe industry to up their game in that area. Because, I , we’ve done business inparts in places that don’t have a Zillow. And I have to tell you the consumerexperience, it’s lacking, sorely. And it’s, I think that competitive pressureis good for the market, and it’s good for the consumer. But yeah, to answeryour question, I do think brokers and franchises have felt that pressure and Ithink they’re feeling it as much more today as they have for a long time.
I love Gary Keller’s Inman talk where he toldthe audience about him spending a billion dollars on technology for the KellerWilliams brand. And describing the tech-enabled agent versus the agent enablingtech. It’s one of my favorite YouTube videos of the last couple years. For $1billion. What are these mega-brands investing in? Like, what are they focusedon?
Well, I think principally, it’s two areas, andit kind of almost always two areas in real estate. It’s either customeracquisition, or its efficiency. And that those are like the broad themes yousee and where they’re choosing to make those investments. And then withinthose, then you go, Okay, well, let’s talk about, you know, what is theirphilosophy towards customer acquisition determines where they spend theirdollars? You know, you have you have companies that have spent massive amountsof money generating, you know, inquiries from online, you know, billions andbillions of dollars have been spent there. There’s been a quiet renaissance inthe brokerage industry about, Hey, why don’t we spend money on our clients? Whydon’t we spend money on our stay in touch technology? Why don’t we spend moneyon things that consumers who used our brand before will find useful andvaluable. So, there’s been a quiet renaissance there the past, you know, 8 to10 years. So we see, that’s where you get companies like Moxie works that havereally invested heavily in that. That’s where you see some of the companiesthat are building technology that just makes that consumer experience ofworking with your agent much better, like RealScout, and they’ve invested a lotin making that whole experience of I’m shopping with an agent, even Homesnap,which now powers broker public portal, has some of that DNA of like, let’s makethe process, you know, the customer experience work a lot better. So, but thosebroadly are the two areas. Efficiency is what we talked about back office,transaction management, forms, compliance, making it simpler, cheaper, easierfor the agency business for the broker to manage the business that’s happeningand understand what’s going on. So those are broadly if you look at if you lookat any eXP Realty. I mean, they, they, they had to centralized services tobuild this national virtual brokerage. So, that meant that’s where some oftheir investment is into that how can we operate efficiently at scale withoutoffices? Okay, well, they’re they spent a lot of money solving that problem forthemselves.
Well times and well played.
Well times for sure.
Holy cow. Opendoor IPO is coming up. And it’sit’s been disclosed now that there’s very little money being made on thesetransactions, and it seems like they’re going to be relying heavily on theauxiliary services. How long can these companies not make money with thesebuy-sell transactions before investors are like, we’re gonna pass?
Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know, Idon’t knowif I can answer that question. Maybe we can, because it, I think it comes downto the appetite of the investors that see a, you know, a market share,maneuver, and is like, Okay, how much market share can we go after to takebefore we can, you know, change our rates and have inducing profit take? So Ithink it’s a really hard question to answer because it comes down to, reallythe appetites of these both institutional in some cases, singular investorsthat have a lot of money that they can put into that segment of the industry, Ithink the experiment of will consumers pay for convenience? I think this hasbeen the grand experiment, like will consumers pay a little bit more forconvenience in the housing sector? We know they’ll do it for for food delivery.We know they will do it for you know, clothing. You know, we’ll know they weknow they do it? We know they do it for a lot of other things. Will they do itfor a very large sale or a very large purchase? And I think the answer is yes.Based on what we’ve seen, I think there’s enough consumers, it’s a more thanmaybe the industry thought it was that will do it. And such the extent where atraditional brokerage industry is now responding to that by creating your ownOpendoor like programs, or even partnering with some of these companies that doopen door types of programs, so.
There’s all of a sudden the industry isrecognized that, right? That’s how we’ve made a living for many years thatpeople will, you know, take a discount in order to say, have certain termsleave all their junk behind or, you know, whatever. There is, I do think, youknow, I do wonder, there is a lot of unknowns in that, though, in a lot of riskwhere the investors have traditionally demanded a decent margin, that theOpendoors, you know, aren’t leaving themselves. And, I think that the biggerquestion to me is not is if there’s consumer demand is whether or not they canreally do it on as thin a margin as they’re trying, successfully, to the pointwhere it actually is a business.
Yeah, I mean, I think that’s everybody’scriticisms of these business models. But I think we also forget is that theycan change their pricing when they need to, I mean, Redfin, did, you know,Zillow makes has made adjustments the entire time, everybody thought they weregonna go, they’re not making money there, that means they’re going to go away.And that’s actually been a bad bet.
Yeah, no, no, no.
You know, so so it’s not, I mean, I’m notarguing in favor of like, Oh, well, their business model is perfect, becausethat’s a ridiculous argument. But the point is, like, oh, they’ve raised theyhave an enormous amount of capital, they have some pretty smart people thattend to get involved these companies. I’m not saying they’re, we have very manysmart people in traditional industry, too. I’m not degrading these intelligenceat all. But they’re smart. And when the market shifts and changes they’re goingto do, and they’re going to do different things. And so I think that’s where Ithink that’s where people get hung up is they say, Well, you know, if they’regoing to do that forever, they’re going to go broke, and that’s probably right.But they’re not going to do that, right? They’re gonna they’re gonna change andshift and adapt. And it just makes more. This industry does not have a historywhere new competitors come in, and, you know, destroy the old models. That’snot if you look at the history of real estate and Stefan and I have talkedabout this many times. You look at the history of real estate, you go Okay,well, you know, RE/MAX came in the 70s, with this flat fee desk model. Andactually, they copied Realty Executives actually did it first, right? That didn’tdestroy the industry. But boy, people, they wouldn’t let Dave Liniger be amember, a member of the National Association of Realtors, they were really mad,right? And then, you know, you know, when Realogy or formally Senec came in andsaid, we’re going to apply our way we’re going to, we’re going to be the onlycompany they own more than one brain. People said, that’s insane. And they didit via acquisition that’ll never work. Realogy’s here today. I mean, we can saylots of pros and cons, but the history of the industry. If you look at itclosely, what it shows you is that when a new model or new offering comes inindustry, it just adds another option on the shelf for consumers. And, youknow, once the operators figure out how to run it sustainably, it sticksaround, it doesn’t blow up the old models, it maybe steal some of the marketshare. It takes away some of the nonperformers, right. But that’s what thisindustry when we talk about innovation in this industry. That’s the history ofwhat it looks like. It doesn’t look like a movie. That’s what we’re not we’renot doing when we think, hey, there’s this huge industry, there’s a lot of roomfor people to be involved in residential.
Aaron’s done a lot of work on the buy box with,you know, of what are these guys actually buying? And you see it’s a prettysmall box of stuff that actually willing to take this risk on. And so thatalone, you know, not only is it just certain markets, but even within thosemarkets, it’s a certain square footage range, a certain price range, a certainnumber of beds and baths, you know, like, they have a pretty tight formula they’refollowing. You know, there’s a lot of transactions in that formula, a lot ofroom for growth, but this whole hot leftover?
Yeah, there’s plenty of room, there’s plentyroom. So we’re pretty, when we work with our clients, we’re pretty optimisticin terms of like, Hey, this is, you know, if you’re innovating to you will moveon, you know, there’s no, there’s not a doom and gloom situation, you just needto be innovating too in advance.
Changes the only constant. So, don’t if you’rejust sitting there, you might be in trouble. But if you’re changing as well,and moving with the times you will be fine.
We interviewed David Hicks with the HomeVestorsthe We Buy Ugly Houses, brand on, I, I started saying that the iBuyers of thewe buy easy houses brand at least here a lot of markets in Southern California,they’re not rehabbing at all, you’re lucky if you get new paint. And it’s allabout speed. So, it’s speed and liquidity in the market. That’s innovation. So,okay.
And there’s actually the iBuyers in general, Ithink what most people think of the Opendoor model, when you say iBuyer, youknow, they go well, they’re going to make an offer on the house. But actually alot of the innovation that I think has been very impactful with consumers onthe other side, where they say, Hey, we’re going to, we’re going to give youthe money to go buy the house you want while we sell your house, whether we buyit from you, or we list it or whatever. And there’s a lot of there’s a lot ofthat, that actually for that, you know, freeze, freeze up consumers who mightotherwise say, I’m not going to sell because I don’t know that I can provide Idon’t want to be in a situation where I’m waiting for my house to close and myhome, I want that actual financial tool now solves that problem for them. Andthat’s a legitimate problem. I mean, that’s a legitimate problem that locks upa big part of the inventory in the market, if you can unlock that inventory inthe market. And that’s, that’s, that’s good for everybody. That’s moretransactions for everybody to do.
I have to say.
Sorry, lots of different ways that could stillhappen besides the offer, etc. Right? We can sort of bridge financing terms.Other. I mean, I think there’s a lot of innovation that can happen in thatspace. But I totally agree that’s a core, a core problem, right? Especially nowwith inventory so tight, you may want to move but to take that risk, test, selland be homeless. Yes, it’s too much for most people.
Yeah, I think for many consumers that this is alegitimate problem. And companies like Knock and these other companies arereally trying to solve that, that intermediate, intermediate situation problemwith financing and you know, Opendoors now doing that, where it’s like, hey, we’ll,we’ll let you go, go start making offers will will back you, you know, Oh,okay. That’s great. We couldn’t do that by design. That’s, that’s more and moreoptions on the show for consumers.
As an investor, I’ve done those deals where I’vebought somebody’s house got a good, great deal, but they wanted to rent backuntil they had, you know, something else ready. And so, I mean, yeah, for sure.I mean, there’s clearly demand there.
Yeah. I’m most excited about the the Realtorbrands coming out with their version. Keller Williams have been threatening andsaid they’ve been testing for a while. And Realogy just came out and said thatthey’re creating their version of the iBuyer partnership. Because I look atOpendoor competing against Redfin, and Zillow, I mean, Zillow, they’ve had alot of things in play for quite some time. So when Opendoor comes into a marketas an unknown entity, and has to spend so much more on marketing, when youknow, the Zestimate is just top of mind. I mean, that, that’s hard. That’s alot of money to spend in the market for brand mindshare.
Jack Miller 39:03
Yeah, it is, although I know the messaging fromthe broker industry, which is true is you have, you know, 1.4 million boots onthe ground, that have their personal networks, on average, an agent has, youknow, 400 people in their contact database, and if they’re supplied with theright tools, they can be, they can be the market, you know, they can be thefirst person that is contacted about, Hey, I’m thinking about buying orselling. And that’s been the traditional industry secret weapon the whole time,is that those relationships that they have in their communities. So, that that’s,that’s the counter. And that’s Gary Keller’s playbook. By the way. That’s beenthe playbook for most traditional brokers forever. Is that.
Well, Ihope they roll it out.
Different though for Opendoor competing withZillow, right? Like, I would not want to be Opendoor competing with Zillow. Youknow, there were everybody’s on Zillow side already right Openndoor has to goearn each one of those.
Yeah, that’s tough competition, as well, Ithink Opendoor has got its own like they’re they, they have an approach wherethey’re like, Hey, we’re gonna work more closely with the industry, we want to,we want to be part of that network, right? And they want to be a solution. Andso. But it’s tough for them. And it’stough for anybody to go head to head with Zillow in terms of just consumerawareness and market share. Nationally, I think that’s a that’s a difficult play.In a local market? You can do a lot, you know, with the local brand and there’splenty of independent brokerages and franchise brands that I see that, youknow, in given markets, they go head to head all the time. And it’s becausethey’re, they’re not trying to win the United States market, they’re focused onHouston or Dallas, or, you know.
You kinda have to, yeah. And they have a personthere locally, right? It’s, you know, I don’t think the big brands, you know,the Realogy’s and the rest could do it without that local presence to writethat person who knows that market better than Zillow is ever going to know it,that I can have personal contact with the folks, Zillow can never have, right?They can do things that don’t scale, like direct mail and other things thatZillow never makes sense to do. Right?
Yeah, yeah, I keep, that’s another that’s a funone people that, you know, what is what this direct mail is like, Oh, thispencils out for that person that works that neighborhood? Very nicely. It’ssomething Yeah, we’ve we’ve done over and over and over again, with our brokerclients. It’s like, oh, if you’re, if you don’t have a program for that, here’show you can take a good agent, and double their business by building a reallysolid local market program with direct mail is a core component. So it’s over.It’s kind of I love that it’s one of those things, everybody writes off, theysay the same thing about billboards to billboards gets a bad rap. But if you usebillboards properly, very effective, we have several top teams that we can workwith. And I mean, I don’t think there’s a secret in in some of the team part ofthe industry, a lot of people look at the word and go, why would you spendmoney on that, but very effective, if done properly, so.
Speaking of that, getting local and gettingdone properly, right, let’s talk about teams, because teams has been the bigstory now here for a while. And it really seems like you know, it’s just wherestill things are going and I don’t know where you guys have putting out yourtrends report. Do you? Are you still pretty bullish on teams? Do you see teamsas being kind of a driver still?
Yeah, we, we write about teams fairlyfrequently. And trends within the teams. I mean, we’re very strong chapter twoyears ago that really went into the structure of teams and like the differentkinds of teams because people say, team, but that can be, you know, a mom andpop team that can be for people who just kind of cooperatively use an admin, itcan be what we refer to as a High-Performance Team, which has roles and youknow, there’s a lead generation program, there’s, you know, that, so, so But I,and this year, we’re writing about it, a chapter on the 2021 report coming outabout the lead generation oriented business opportunities are exploited reallyheavily by teams, teams that really made tremendous advantage of leadgeneration more effectively, because they’re able to establish standardpractices, and accountability for what happens with leads. And so we’ve got awhole chapter going into what that looks like, but if your team or brokerage,so they, they have grown in market share. Every year for years, they have grownconsistently faster than the top producers and industry teams are gaining moretransaction count per person on the team and sales volume per person on theteam that’s been consistent. And it’s because they’re really capitalizing onthat efficiency that you get by, you know, these high-performance teams byhaving people in roles. They can just focus on being great at one job. And thatis the that’s what they’re capitalizing on. We’re seeing some of that beingapplied into the brokerage space. It’s always had some application there. Andthere’s more than that, that we see in some of the new model insurancecompanies. They’re like a Houwzer that is running basically a big team model.You’ve seen some big teams turn into brokerages like Ron Spain. And what I willtell you is they’re a, if you’re running a traditional brokerage, and you lookat the performance of teams, and you look at your net profit percentage, andyou look at their net profit percentage, you want their net profit percentage, likeit is it’s astonishing. I mean, it’s 3, 4, 5, X what you can expect intraditional brokerage and and and lots of people say, oh, can’t do it. Notreal. There’s lots of naysayers. But I’ve, we looked at these P&Ls, we’relooking at these performance numbers. It’s very impressive. Now I will say thechallenge is talent. The challenge is having the right operators and hiring andtalent getting the right people in place. If you can do that. It isn’t very,you have to invest on the front end with a team, you have to build the team,you have to invest in the marketing, you have to do the lead generation, youhave to invest in the brand, you have to do those things. But if you do thatthe return is very attractive, very attractive. So, we’re still, I think ourcompany still believes teams is a very viable growing model will continue to beso there’s some, you know, very talented entrepreneurs running teams in thiscountry. And, you know, it’s a compelling model from a profitabilityperspective. In our industry.
Is there a particular structure there, youmean, you’ve talked about high-performance teams, but is there a particularstructure or kind of org chart or, etc, that you see that’s outperformingothers?
The ones that that we’ve observed, that tend tobe high performance, in terms of net net profitability do really well, I tendto as quickly as possible separate out the non dollar productive activitiesfrom the ones. So they’ll focus the set of licensed agents who are reallymeeting with clients signing contracts, showing buyers who really engage in theactivity of selling real estate, and then the paperwork, the transactiondetails, the listing marketing, the you know, all of that is being managed bystaff members, who can, you know, do that for $25 to $30 a day on depending onthe market. So, that is the that is the consistent theme is that whenever youcan take an agent who is dollar productive when they’re working with clientsand give more of that time back to them to do that dollar productive activity.That’s, that’s what, that’s that’s a big element. The other element is, is teamor inappropriate content, context pumping, controlled business, where the theteam, the company is generating the business, they are investing in the leadgeneration efforts in the brand efforts, and the things that result in theconsumer doing outreach. And that’s another like, that’s another consistentprofit, profit component, because a business that is given to an agent, you cantake a referral fee or an advantage split, whatever it is, and those you know,so if you have specialization, and you have the capacity to generate highvolume of company control business, that that’s those are the those are thepieces of the formula, probably most important, we’ve got a pretty gooddescription that in the chapter that we wrote this year, mainly because we wantit we have clients that are trying to do this, and I wanted to be able to sendthem and say, here’s a chapter that tells you how. And there are some people init in the chapter that talks, they talked about their team and theiroperations, how they set it up. And, you know, there’s some real lessons to belearned from that, how they built the brand and how invested like that’s, that’sreally good as an entrepreneur to have a map to follow and say, Okay, I can seehow to do this. And now I can learn from that, to do it the hard way, sotraveling...
I’m a big believer in that, even if you want todo something totally new, right? Like if you want to make history like it doesn’trepeat, but it rhymes. And so if you’re not, if you’re not learning and payingattention to what others did that was successful, you know, you’re not gonnahave much chance.
Yeah, we have we have that with our clients,you will learn the easy way, the hard way, is the easy way, the easy way itcomes by the way, it comes with a price tag, you usually pay up front, right?Paid up front, but it’s the easy way. Whereas the hard way, comes with a biggerprice tag, and usually a lot of time that you pay out of luxury, and you may ormay not get the results. I mean, that’s the problem.
And you’re going to be black and blue at theend regardless.
And you’re gonna be black and blue, and you’regonna go I don’t know. So, the easy, we tell people I know there’s a price taginvolved, but take the easy way, you’ll feel a lot better, you’ll get theresults quicker, you know, you’ll get the results, you may not get the resultsin that way. S,o that’s, that’,s that’s what knowledge, that’s what knowledgeis. That’s part of that’s why we do consulting is for that is to help peoplelike, let’s, let’s give you the industry knowledge that we can and havedeveloped over, you know, two decades of research by my partner in the lastseven years and building this into a consulting team so that you don’t, sopeople don’t have to go do that on their own. It’s very expensive to do.
I always like being a consultants, most recentcustomer because they’re not using my learnings for their next customer. Yeah.
Well, I think that’s true. I think the industryhas a has a has a difficult history with consultants because a lot of peoplethat were bad at their jobs didn’t strategy consulting, it’s very differentwhen you have I don’t think we’ve had a professional management consulting firmlike ours, and I can say that there’s some other great consultants spacepilot I’mnot denigrating any of our peers, but i don’t i think it’s, it’s, it’s not, wehaven’t had one like the way we’re set up, we’re integrated and we can doeverything from help you start the company, to help you grow it, to help youevaulate, to help you, you know acquire other companies or help you sell yourcompany, like there’s a pulse, help you pick the technology, help all of that.So, that’s been not really an offer in our space. And so, that’s, that’s what’sdifferent from people that have been in practice for people. You know, I’ve runbrokerages our Dean, in charge of our brokerage consulting, he’s had 10,000,thousands of people work for him. So, it’s just very different when you’reworking with operators. The investor space, that’s true to like, you want towork with an investor that’s done like this is not their third or fourth orfifth flip. It’s their, you know, 50 that’s a different operator.
It’s my Yeah, that’s my number one piece ofadvice for somebody coming in, investor coming in is like, find a mentor that’salready done it and go work with them. And, but you know, agree up front ofwhen you’re gonna, like, break off and do your own thing. So there’s no hard orweird feelings. But you know, there’s no better way, that’s how I learned thebusiness after being, you know, like you as in tech through 2000. And then, youknow, made this side direction off into real estate. And, you know, but thatthat’s definitely the easier way, right? work with somebody who’s done it beenthere.
Absolutely, save yourself a lot of time andhassle, and money in many cases, we interviewed a climber we interviewed anindependent broker that had built, she built a very impressive business. Andthe interview, I said, How much did you spend building this business? And she’slike, Oh, I spent a quarter of a million dollars making mistakes in the firsttwo years. Like, wow. But she was very upfront about it. She’s like, yeah, Ididn’t know what I was doing. I didn’t really have any. I didn’t have anybodywho was advising me. It was a quarter million dollars. Yeah. So that’s, that isand sometimes you don’t have a choice. If there’s not a good if you don’t havesomebody a consulting firm trust or a mentor, things like that. Sometimes youjust have to pay the price that way. But wait, avoid it again.
Yeah, how big is a firm is she?
That is a company out in California has about150 agents firm that was 50 took over, she took over an older company, it wasin a brand in Spain. Vanessa Bergman, Red Realty. And she had a partner andthey the Red brand, they acquired Red and kind of rebuilt it. But, But yeah,she was one of our she’s our, we had her as a advisor, you know, our brokermentor program. We had different people, different people that have been theredone that, you know, built something in our industry, as advisors for ourbroker development program, so.
We’ve, we’ve seen Amazon sort of touch aroundthe outsides of real estate with the turnkey program that magically disappearedthis year with Realogy. There’s rumors that Google is looking to get inside ofreal estate somehow. Is there anybody on the peripheral Microsoft, IBM that weshould know about now?
I’m Yes, there is they’re not talking to us?And if they were talking to us we’ll have signed a pile of non disclosuredocuments, so I can’t no. No, no, no comment, I guess? I honestly tell you, I,I’m unaware of any of that. But I we all thought, yeah, I think this is a hardindustry to, to make the thing go in, to come in as an outsider without a lotof help, I believe. And I think we’ve got evidence to prove that. It’s justhard, hard work, because it is a service industry. It’s that there’s a personwho has to work with clients. And that’s different from, you know, somethingwhere it’s like, oh, I can I can write an app that will replace the person’sentire job. Not saving parts of real estate can’t be replaced without,absolutely. But, but I think it’s still at the end of the service industry anda unique product, every house is a little different. It’s not the same. So,that that is, you know, anything that’s modified, we’ve seen can betechnologically clean, you know, accelerated, but houses straighten people verytricky. We’re all so individual.
I thought a Realogy’s move was very funnybecause they dropped Amazon’s turnkey and then they signed a partnership withthe AARP. I’m like, those are on opposite ends of the spectrum. That’shilarious.
When you’re that big, I think you do a lot ofdifferent things. You know.
You’re one of them. Yeah, yeah.
Lots of you know, different different anglesand approaches to the consumer market because likely to customers.
We’re getting close to the end now. Just wonderingif we should, like if there’s a big like 2021 news coming, you’re working onyour trends report, obviously you don’t want to give it away. It’s, it’savailable for sale and should get it now if you want the discount. Um, but Butuh, leave us with something, you know, some tidbit for 2021 of, you know whatall these folks should be thinking about or you know, out of your report? No,not, you know, don’t give away the big surprising report. But just something.
I, you know, I don’t know that you had this asone of the questions earlier about, like, what are the big surprises comingtrends. And what I, what I can tell you about trends, and this is I getstraight from Stefan, he has done more work than anybody in industry. And he willtell you that it’s not hard to spot the trends to say, Oh, you know, we seeteams, like people been talking about teams forever. So, it’s usually not hardto see that the trend and say, Hey, we’re, you know, hey, we’re looking at thisstuff that happened in New York out of Long Island, and some of the current thethe subpoena hearings with the state senators there, it does not take, it doesnot take brilliants to go, Hmm, there might be some regulation related todiversity and housing and how people are treated, there might be someregulation coming up. So that doesn’t take brilliance. It takes just smarts,just plain old smarts, observing the truth. But the hard part is timing is howsoon are these things going to happen?
And task management is exactly the example. Youcan go like, hey, digital transaction, which makes everything better 15 yearslater, because you just it’s hard to tell. But what I what we can tell you thatI would say, again, it’s a it’s a surprise, but only if you’re not beenwatching, right, is how quickly the pandemic reconfigured our industry fordigital adoption. Like that has been an enormous change. That I don’t think it’sfully it. I know, leaders have talked about we’ve talked about it, we’ve hadindustry leaders on our fireside chats with you every Friday. And we’ve talkedabout that. But I think the impact, there’s a tale to that, where it’s like weare crying the whole group of people to learn on zoom meetings to show up andcommunicate digitally, to show houses with, you know, with without the clientthere. Like, there’s a lot of people that do a fair amount of business. Theyhadn’t figured all that stuff out this year. And it drove adoption oftechnology, it accelerated that technology adoption, which by the way, wasalready speeding up. I mean, we’re already going through a speed up. So, it’sdriven down, it’s driven the trends and office space, people are saying, Do Ineed the same office space I had before? The answer’s no for a lot of them. So,I think the big takeaway, and you’ll see that in the report we write about itis how the COVID pandemic has really pushed the speed at which these kinds ofchanges are being accepted into our industry, and not just ours, and a bunch ofother trees as well. But real estate, very specifically had a lot of thingsthat drove it faster, because of the way that we do business. And it was morebusiness models. So, I think you’ll see that you’ll see that more and more.
We’ve definitely seen that at PropertyRadar,right? Because all these folks that are used to going to, you know, whatever,it is a Kawanis or, I don’t know, church or whatever, and meeting new clients,and then they can’t anymore, right, you know, to use public records to findpotential clients and find their phone numbers and the rest right, has been,you know, kind of necessary for a lot of, a lot of folks that lost that normalplace where they make those relationships. So, we’ve definitely been abenefactor. And I’m sure lots of other tech companies have as well.
You know, there’s going to be a tail on wherewe all had to learn new skills this year, the realtors, you know, just as muchas anybody. And that’s going to change the way the business operates. And, andI think monitor ways we do write about that report on but I also think it’s oneof those things where if you look at it, you can start drawing some conclusionsand say, Okay, yeah, that’s good to know that thing over there. That’s going tobe different because of this, persistently. Yeah, so but for those interested,you know, we we write this where every year is a key returns calm, if youpreorder copy $30 off up until December, our ship date in December. We shipthat first week in December. And you know, we’re going to do it, we’ll do somewebinars, we’re going to do some overviews of it as well, we typically do somecontent around the release. So, we’ll we’ll do some additional materials, andbe hosting some guests and talking about a lot of things related to trendsbecause that’s, that’s, that is a space. That’s where we are. And that looksthat...
Is the Almanac a yearly thing too?
The Almanac, yeah, that comes out every year.We published digital versions of the list starting in January. So, the firstlist we’ll release is the rankings of real estate industry leaders, which isout in January. And then we work our way through. We do enterprises, the verylargest companies, and then we do MLS’s and associations and we do the top 1000brokers. bridges. That’s the last list we released digitally, and it was aprint publication. We ship those in May and that’s also available, availablefor pre-order if people want to print copy of that as well.
So, the Almanac also includes your top 1,000agents and your top brokerages.
Yes, all of our lists. All of our lists in oneplace. And then there’s a digital, there’s digital, you can go online, go torealestatealmanac.com, it’s, it’s searchable. It’s all there. The publicationhas some additional analysis and charts and graphs. It’s kind of cool stuff. It’sonly for the print publication, but the the actual raw data in terms ofsearchability you can go there and learn a lot. I mean, especially if you areadjacent to the real estate industry, and you want to know like, Hey, who are thetop leaders in this real, I know, one of the top you know, Keller Williamsfranchises really were the biggest independence. Like it has all that that’sall online, you’ll look for that. And the book, the book itself also has some,you know, your, your trends and are big movers and changers and who’s you know,who’s, who’s going up? Who’s been down? That, that’s all in the report. So,there’s additional material there in the print, which is very interesting. Ifyou are in industry trends person. I am, mine already ordered, I will make sureto link it and all the places that we published this, and I just reallyappreciate your time. Thanks for joining us. Yeah, I was delightful is myfavorite topic to talk about for hours on end. So, you gave me a legitimateexcuse to talk about real estate more.
Sounds good. All right.
Great. Thanks, gentlemen. I appreciate, theappreciate you guys having me in. Have a great day.
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